Need some help with color of new puppy

[missjess10475]

I'm a newbie here. I'm getting our new mini dachshund next week and have been very excited. Until yesterday. I'm fairly confident the woman I'm getting him from said he's a double dapple. I'm not postive though, so I'm not quoting her. Anyhow, I was looking up doubles yesterday just to look at the different colorings of them. I found quite a few articles online about them and how they have a very high rate of blindness and/or deafness due to the double recessive gene. (Hope I remembered that right)
I figured I'd post a couple pictures and see if anyone here knows if he is a double. If anyone knows more about this subject? Any information would be helpful. I'm so excited for this little guy. I just want to know what to be prepared for.

 

[Steph]

He looks like a double dapple. Do you have pictures of his parents?

Dapple is not a recessive gene, it is a dominant gene meaning that one parent must be a dapple to produce a dapple. To mix 2 dapple genes is known as lethal breeding because of the higher rates of blind/deaf/deformed/internal abnormalities sometimes even unexpected deaths of the puppies. In the dachshund world it is frowned upon to breed for double dapples and considered irresponsible breeding because of the risks to the puppies and sometimes even the mother.

A friend of mine once said when we were discussing double dapples or DDs that "It is like playing Russian Roulette with a puppy's life because you never know where the bullet is" she means you never know if you're going to get a healthy puppy or an unhealthy puppy.

The Double Dapple - DORG - The Dachshund Magazine On-Line!

 

[Penny]

The color is black and tan, the pattern is double dapple.
As Steph said, it is frowned upon to breed a dapple to another dapple because of the good chances to have double dapple puppies and health issues. It is not done by reputable breeders. Even if it was a 'whoops' breeding (my kids opened the gate) a breeder can be sure if she has a dapple female in the house that she does not get a dapple male. Many times double dapple puppies are sold at a higher price because of their attractive coat and/or blue eyes when they know health issues are likely. Shame on them to benefit financially from such a breeding. Buyer beware.

If you are willing to love the dog and learn how to manage a doxie with sight and hearing problems, you've got a heads up anyway. The breeder might say that they get around just fine but likely they did not have any tests done and don't really know if there are deficits. Glad you are here and asking.

 

[MatthewLP]

Yes everything Steph and Penny said is absolutly correct.

you should'nt pay anything for this type of poor quality breeding due to its shameful practice. To rescue a Double Dapple is one thing but to purchase and support this type dog is extreamly frowned upon and is not recognized by the AKC, reputble breeders or dachshund owners.

Bad breeders use cheap words like "Special, rare or unique" and like Penny said often pay more for a double dapple than a healthy Dachshund from a decent breeder. All Double Dapples are at risk of blind and deafness. If they told you somthing different be extreamly leary

Health issues will be quite high though out its life. and like all Deaf and blind they will have special needs and care.

Matthew Plummer
{Kansas City, Mo}

P.S. It just breaks my heart to see this.

 

[missjess10475]

Ugh. Now I don't know what to do. So, even if he's healthy now, he can still develop problems later? I would still love him if he went blind or deaf, but I've never cared for an animal with those problems so I'm not sure how I would learn. If she's going to sell him to whoever, I'd rather it be me since I'm aware of what might happen and I'm willing to care for him. Rather than someone who will find out later and dump him somewhere.
The woman seems so nice. I didn't see this coming. I wonder if she's aware of this? I'm not trying to badmouth her in any way. I'm just not that way. Right now I'm just concerned with this little guy. Is there a chance that he might just be healthy and have no problems? Other than blindness/deafness, what other problems could develop?

 

[Steph]

There is a chance that he may be perfectly healthy and have absolutely no issues at all. Other than blind & deaf, he could have heart, liver, kidney problems. He could develop seizures and it could turn out to be epilepsy or one of those types that there is an unknown cause to them. To be better prepared look up trainers that specialize in touch/ vibration training for blind/deaf dogs.

And honestly, if she knew he was a double dapple when you inquired about him, she knew what she was doing. She was hoping that she could get big money from people that didn't do their research or ask questions. I am friends with a lady that all she does is rescue double dapples and places them in good homes when they get dumped off at a shelter because their owners can't deal with the issues.

I'm glad you're here and asking, we can and will help you to the best of our abilities (and if I don't have an answer, I will find you one through research or my network of people) if you decide to make this little boy part of your family.

 

[missjess10475]

Being the mom of a special needs kiddo, I think makes me want this guy even more. If I just said oh never mind, I don't want him because he might have problems later, I would feel guilty. I would always wonder if someone else bought him and had him put down or dumped him in a shelter because things went downhill. I'll love him no matter what. I just want to prepare myself from the beginning. I did write the lady Sunday and told her I found some information about health problems of doubles and asked if this is something I should worry about, and she hasn't answered me. That's why I looked for a dachshund message board where I could ask questions. If she even answers me, I'm supposed to be getting him Monday. I'll definetly be taking him to my vet right away and getting information from him on what to keep an eye out for, etc.

 

[MatthewLP]

This is the "unknown" there is no way to know what could be later on though puppyhood let alone adulthood.

And I agree with Steph, this breeder knew what she was doing and should be frowned upon and highly discouraged. You keep saying "if he goes blind or deaf" The pictures are clearly a dog who is currently blind and Deaf at birth.

If you take this type of responsibility surely you must also expect to take the unknowns as well. Double Dapples are not genetically healthy breeds, so there is no way to know the "What IF's"

Is she selling this dog to you? or giving it to you? and if you choose to take on a already blind and deaf double dapple, I would be financially prepared the rest of its life.

 

[MatthewLP]

I'll definetly be taking him to my vet right away and getting information from him on what to keep an eye out for, etc.

Did she tell you the little guy is already blind and deaf, becuase they are Blind and Deaf at birth.

If your really considering this, at your cost. Take the dog to "your vet" before you say yes. A good breeder should have no problems in allowing you to take the dog to your family vet and give him a full exam to make the most informed choice. It makes you a responsiable pet owner and makes the breeder accountable.

Listen we all love our Doxies. I realize I can't rescue all of them. but what I won't do is support Double Dapple Breeding. as much as I feel sorry for the little ones, I must do what is right by not supporting such breeders as this "For a fee or for sale"

To adopt one as a Rescue or to be given to me.... Yes, but to purchase one for sale..."never"



Consider this. If she "knowingly" breed Double Dapple Doxies for sale. She is not a nice lady and not a reputable breeder regardless how nice they are. Overly nice can come a higher cost than whats it worth.

 

[missjess10475]

She wrote me today and said she agrees doubles are not what anyone wants to breed for, that the father is black and tan and has no visible dappling, that this is the first time she's used him and didn't know he carried the dapple gene until the litter was born. She says this male I'm getting has been cleared on his sight and hearing but does have a blind sister. I don't think the worst of everyone, so of coarse I want to trust she's telling the truth.
While his eyes appear odd in his picture, I have other pictures of him where they look totally normal. So I don't assume this picture is of a currently blind and deaf dog.
I sought out a message board to see if I could get some information and/or help to be better educated on this, not to feel attacked. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by asking about it.

 

[Penny]

My apologies if you feel that anyone has attacked you personally.
People on here love the breed and if you feel any attack, it would be directed to the breeder and breeders who are willing to get double dapples and charge more. I am very happy to see you here and asking questions, but there's no delicate way of stating health issues that may be involved.

Now you know. What ever you decide to do is up to you and I'm pretty sure that if you go ahead and adopt the male, you can adapt to any needs he may have. You have the ability to learn and work out what's best for him. I appreciate your willingness to adopt him and figure out what his needs are along the way and keep him from getting an owner that may decide to dump him in a shelter one day. That's very admirable! If you fell that way, I think he'd be a lucky boy to end up in your home.

Let us know what you decide. Sending a hug to you because I imagine this isn't an easy decision.

Georgia's breeder has a dog that is vision impaired because of eye injuries and she does rally/obedience with him. Here are a few photos of them at the nationals.

We got to watch them go through the paces and it brought tears to my eyes. He is a very brave and loving little man, and much loved.

 

[MatthewLP]

She wrote me today and said she agrees doubles are not what anyone wants to breed for, that the father is black and tan and has no visible dappling, that this is the first time she's used him and didn't know he carried the dapple gene until the litter was born. She says this male I'm getting has been cleared on his sight and hearing but does have a blind sister. I don't think the worst of everyone, so of coarse I want to trust she's telling the truth.
While his eyes appear odd in his picture, I have other pictures of him where they look totally normal. So I don't assume this picture is of a currently blind and deaf dog.
I sought out a message board to see if I could get some information and/or help to be better educated on this, not to feel attacked. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by asking about it.

I'm sure you must feel that I'm the one attacking you. However that's not the case. We want to to feel you are getting the most informed choice available to you. My harshness is not without compassion. as Penny said I was more agenst the breeder than your self. You asked the questions and you deserves the "honest truth and answers" and not the "nice lady treatment" and becuase of that I'm sorry if that offended you becuase I was not offended by your questions or remarks.

Not all breeders are as nice as yours "trust us on this one" so please have some compassion in our reservation about some breeders, and owners. We want what is best for the dog and you as well.

This is a very special breed, they can and will give so much love and lifelong dedication to the right owner. I'm thrilled you are taking opportunity. and wish you the best of luck.

Matthew Plummer
{Kansas City, Mo.}

 

[Steph]

Ah, the hidden dapple. A breeder's worst nightmare. Normally it happens in reds and creams because of their shading. The shading disappears as they grow and so do the dapple spots. It is rare for a black and tan, but not unheard of. My boy's uncle was thought to be a straight up black and tan until his first litter was born and then they found the dapple spot inside his thigh. She ended up fixing her dogs...

Don't worry about his eyes looking funny. The dapple gene does funny things to the eyes regardless of being single or double. My boy has one complete blue eye and one that's 3/4 blue, 1/4 brown plus he has what's called "starburst" pupils or funny shaped pupils. His night vision sucks, but again that's due to the dapple gene. It messed up the tapeta or reflective layer at the back of the eye. Dapple owners should take pictures of their dogs to see if the reflection is green or red. If red, the tapeta is messed up. If green, it's normal like every other dog. Red also will mean that their night vision will be bad and make the dog more skittish at night then during the day.

 

[Wandering Man]

One of our members, Deaf Dogs would be a good resource for you.

Take a look at some of the tricks her double dapples can do:

http://dachshund-talk.com/forum/f25/i-finally-got-around-913.html

 

[Doxmom]

I was thinking the same thing, Wandering Man, about Deaf Dogs and her amazing training techniques for hearing impaired dogs. She's quite amazing.
Great pictures, Penny!

To reinterate the message chain here, we all care deeply about our doxies and are touched by your sensitivity to the puppy's special needs. You would obviously be a loving and caring doxie Mom. Is it possible to have a chat with your vet before your final decision? If you do adopt the dog, maybe a consideration would be pet health insurance to defray your expenses, if needed.

Please let us know what you decide and know that we are here for you no matter which path you take with this little guy.

~Nikki

 

[DeafDogs]

Ok so I have to pipe up here

get the blind puppy!!! LOL

sorry, I adore the dogs with "disabilities" though I don't consider it much of a disability. Mouse, Boo and Scout don't know they're any different from hearing/properly sighted dogs. They really aren't much different from "normal" and are infact, in my experience, easier to train. Someone already posted a link to my video, check it out. But if your pup is normal now, he won't "develop" and hearing or vision issues later (except normal hearing or vision loss in old age) As to the other issues Steph has said, I actually disagree (which doesn't happen often) There is no proof that double merles are more prone to health issues, or epilepsy (I've spent alot of time researching and talking to others in the deaf dog world about double merle). The only reason it seems more common, is though that doubles are usually only produced by backyard breeders and puppy mills who care not for the health of their breeding stock. If it's an accidental breeding of a cryptic merle from health tested, quality breeding stock, then you will likely have a perfectly healthy, normal puppy.