Help with distinguishing between dapple and double dapple


Kah324

New Member
Hey all, I am recently new to dachshund and my girlfriend really wants one. I am supposed to go see a few in the coming days and saw one dapple that caught my attention. I've done some research and found the major differences but not much help on distinguishing the colors on this dapple and the information i was provided. From the pictures he has spots of black, and kind of a mix of redish brown,and a very small what looks like, a white patch under his chin/ chest area. But i was also told he has a little bit of blue on his ears? Any input would help. I can send the pictures i have via email if someone is willing to take a look to help me out. Kyle
 

sherlock

New Member
A double dabble will have large white patches. Check out some picture's of DeafDog's dogs, she has double dapples.

One small white patch doesn't really mean much. One of Watson's brothers had a white patch for a few weeks but it grew out.
 

Kah324

New Member
Thank you. Checked em out. Just dont want to buy her one that might have big bills along with it. Any idea on the blue in the ear or is that normal/ should fade out as well?
 

DeafDogs

Alberta Region Moderator
A Black and tan (silver) dapple will have blue/grey and black spots, with tan 'points' so the blue on the ears would be normal. Doubles aren't unhealthy. That's a very unfortunate misconception. They may have vision or hearing issues, but that won't cause vet bills, just a different style of training. Some doubles have large white patches, however some don't. Dapple acts very randomly, sometimes affecting very little, so they might only have small patches of white. Then you have dapple piebalds, which mimic doubles, but they're not. Best thing to do is find out the colour of the parents. Both parents MUST be dapples to get double dapple puppies... though even that isn't fool proof as you can get cryptic dapples where you can't actually tell the dog is a dapple.
 

MJ Dachshunds

New Member
A Black and tan (silver) dapple will have blue/grey and black spots, with tan 'points' so the blue on the ears would be normal. Doubles aren't unhealthy. That's a very unfortunate misconception. They may have vision or hearing issues, but that won't cause vet bills, just a different style of training. Some doubles have large white patches, however some don't. Dapple acts very randomly, sometimes affecting very little, so they might only have small patches of white. Then you have dapple piebalds, which mimic doubles, but they're not. Best thing to do is find out the colour of the parents. Both parents MUST be dapples to get double dapple puppies... though even that isn't fool proof as you can get cryptic dapples where you can't actually tell the dog is a dapple.
In other breeds Dapple is referred to as Merle, but it is the same just named differently for the Dachshund, not sure why.

Your're exactly right, the only way to have a dapple pup is one of the parents must be dapple! They're no health risks associated with a single dapple. As was stated it depends where on the body the dapple shows itself. If it has blue eyes (one or both) then it MUST be a dapple even if dapple colors are missing from the rest of the dog. But it does not have to have blue eye(s). Genetics notation would be Mm for a single dapple dog, MM for a double dapple, and mm for not dappled.

Double Dapple is where the problem lies. If 2 dogs that are Dapple (Mm & Mm) are allowed to mate and the dapple gene is passed from both parents (not all pups have to be dapple remember) then you end up with a double dapple (MM). They generally have more white on them then normal but not always. If the gene that is passed from both parents ends up hitting the same spot, specifically the eye, then the dog could be born without eyes, distorted eyes, blind etc. There is also a chance of the dog being deaf. The chance of health issues is not worth the risk.

A double dapple and a piebald/dapple can look very similar because of the amount of white on the dog. If you look at our website you'll see our little girl Chloe is a Smooth Blue Tan Dapple Piebald. NOT A DOUBLE DAPPLE.

Our current mother Lucy is a hidden (or cryptic, as stated above) dapple, she as an adult does not show any dappling but did as a pup and the spots faded. She produces Dapple pups, but to look at her she is a Red Brindle. One of her parents was a dapple, therefore she could have been a dapple, if either one of her parents were not dappled. Then I would have explored the father Casey's side. His parents were not dappled.

A way to check for the possibility of a double dapple pup is to look at the pedigree. If both parents are listed as being dappled then there is a chance that the pup could be a double dapple (see above), even then it does not guarantee a genetic defect. Remember both parents must pass the dapple gene to the pup and of that passing both must effect the exact same spot, in this case the eye(s) Not all breeders list the dapple on the pedigree so there is not a guarantee unless they listed both parents as being dapple. Lucy for example was registered as a RED. Now that I know 100% sure that she is a dapple because she threw dapple pups I'm going to change her pedigree. Registration services like AKC and others will allow you to change the dogs color but not the name.

I hope the additional information was of some help,
 
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Penny

New Member
Everything's been said about dapple and double dapples already, above. I wanted to congratulate you first on doing some homework and avoiding supporting the breeding of double dapples. There are breeders who breed for double dapples on purpose because they are 'pretty', which is just ridiculous. They then love to charge more for this 'pretty' pattern, showing their 'true colors' of greed over what's best to get the healthiest pups. Second, I congratulate you on getting a dachshund! Life will never be the same! lol Be sure to post lots of photos for us to enjoy, and ask questions. Best wishes.
 

MJ Dachshunds

New Member
Everything's been said about dapple and double dapples already, above. I wanted to congratulate you first on doing some homework and avoiding supporting the breeding of double dapples. There are breeders who breed for double dapples on purpose because they are 'pretty', which is just ridiculous. They then love to charge more for this 'pretty' pattern, showing their 'true colors' of greed over what's best to get the healthiest pups. Second, I congratulate you on getting a dachshund! Life will never be the same! lol Be sure to post lots of photos for us to enjoy, and ask questions. Best wishes.
I could not agree more!
Having had many dogs since I was a child, purebreds as well as mixed. We just love the personality of the Dachshund. Can be a little stubborn at times, but all other traits more then makes up for that. To us they exhibit all the best the other breeds have to offer in a smaller dog.

I have a neighbor that has a Dachshund that is trained for scent. A friend of his shot a deer and was trying to track it but lost its trail. In came the Dachshund and almost a mile later he found the deer for them.
 

amparra

New Member
In other breeds Dapple is referred to as Merle, but it is the same just named differently for the Dachshund, not sure why.

Your're exactly right, the only way to have a dapple pup is one of the parents must be dapple! They're no health risks associated with a single dapple. As was stated it depends where on the body the dapple shows itself. If it has blue eyes (one or both) then it MUST be a dapple even if dapple colors are missing from the rest of the dog. But it does not have to have blue eye(s). Genetics notation would be Mm for a single dapple dog, MM for a double dapple, and mm for not dappled.

Double Dapple is where the problem lies. If 2 dogs that are Dapple (Mm & Mm) are allowed to mate and the dapple gene is passed from both parents (not all pups have to be dapple remember) then you end up with a double dapple (MM). They generally have more white on them then normal but not always. If the gene that is passed from both parents ends up hitting the same spot, specifically the eye, then the dog could be born without eyes, distorted eyes, blind etc. There is also a chance of the dog being deaf. The chance of health issues is not worth the risk.

A double dapple and a piebald/dapple can look very similar because of the amount of white on the dog. If you look at our website you'll see our little girl Chloe is a Smooth Blue Tan Dapple Piebald. NOT A DOUBLE DAPPLE.

Our current mother Lucy is a hidden (or cryptic, as stated above) dapple, she as an adult does not show any dappling but did as a pup and the spots faded. She produces Dapple pups, but to look at her she is a Red Brindle. One of her parents was a dapple, therefore she could have been a dapple, if either one of her parents were not dappled. Then I would have explored the father Casey's side. His parents were not dappled.

A way to check for the possibility of a double dapple pup is to look at the pedigree. If both parents are listed as being dappled then there is a chance that the pup could be a double dapple (see above), even then it does not guarantee a genetic defect. Remember both parents must pass the dapple gene to the pup and of that passing both must effect the exact same spot, in this case the eye(s) Not all breeders list the dapple on the pedigree so there is not a guarantee unless they listed both parents as being dapple. Lucy for example was registered as a RED. Now that I know 100% sure that she is a dapple because she threw dapple pups I'm going to change her pedigree. Registration services like AKC and others will allow you to change the dogs color but not the name.

I hope the additional information was of some help,
The AKC doesn't recognize dapple piebald, what is your girl registered as?

ETA - I also noticed that your last breeding was a smooth to a long hair, isn't that frowned upon? Just wondering...
 
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MJ Dachshunds

New Member
The AKC doesn't recognize dapple piebald, what is your girl registered as?

ETA - I also noticed that your last breeding was a smooth to a long hair, isn't that frowned upon? Just wondering...
AKC Color & Markings for Dachshunds registration codes can be found here.

She is registered as:
044 - Blue & Tan
020 - Dapple
025 - Piebald

The only disqualification for Dachshunds as far as I know is Knuckling Over.

Smooth mated to long. It's much more common here in the States. In the UK as I understand it it's taboo.
 
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MJ Dachshunds

New Member
Follow up on standard

A TIMELINE OF EVENTS INVOLVING THE PIEBALD DACHSHUND, THE DCA BOARD, AND THE BREED STANDARD

This is an actual accounting of the history of the piebald Dachshund controversy based on truth and documentation. Here you will not find interpretation, persuasion, or commentary.
Only facts. Judge for yourself.




1992 The AKC standard of the Dachshund was revised. White was dropped as a base color, but the following key sentence was added to the beginning of the color section: "Although base color is immaterial, certain patterns and basic colors predominate." Additionally, "all colors are admissible" remained under the wirehaired description. This was the standard under which the first smooth and wire piebald Dachshunds were shown in the U.S. and finished their championships.



1994 The first piebald Dachshund entered the breed ring


1995 The same dog- a smooth piebald- was Reserve Winners Bitch at the Dachshund Club Of America's (DCA) National Specialty (100th anniversary show). She finished her championship in September .


1998 Smooth piebald – Award of Merit DCA National Specialty

1999 DCA added drawings of the piebald pattern to its "Illustrated Standard of the Dachshund" and piebalds were invited by some members of the DCA Judges' Education Committee to the judges’ seminars, so that potential Dachshund judges would recognize this pattern as acceptable. No serious attempts were made to revise the AKC standard to either include or exclude piebalds


Smooth piebald - Reserve Winners Dog DCA National Specialty

Smooth piebald- Best Opposite Sex Westminster


2002 Smooth piebald – Reserve Winners Dog DCA National Specialty


2003 Ten years after the first piebald Dachshund entered the breed ring a few DCA board members decided to specifically exclude piebalds from the standard. Despite a "yes" recommendation from the DCA Board, this amendment failed to pass.


2004 Smooth piebald – Reserve Winners Dog at a host show for DCA National Specialty in California

2005 Fifteen amendments to the standard were proposed by the DCA board. Among them, a detailed description of the piebald pattern. At the September board meeting, a motion was made for the board to recommend a "no" vote to the description on the ballot. It passed by only one vote.


Smooth piebald - Award of Merit DCA National Specialty


2006 In July, the DCA membership voted to approve all amendments to the standard but one- the vote failed to pass the piebald description :

13) Approve the addition of the piebald description to the breed standard

VOTES CAST - 747
VOTES NEEDED FOR ADOPTION - 498
VOTES IN FAVOR - 316*failed
VOTES AGAINST - 431

In September, the DCA Board published a letter in the AKC Judges' Newsletter urging judges to " judge Dachshunds in adherence to the breed standard, which does not include piebald as an acceptable
pattern."


2006 Also in September, the minutes of the Sept. 2005 DCA board meeting- detailing the close vote for the "no" recommendation regarding the piebald description- was published in the DCA Newsletter (a full year later). It was also two months AFTER the official membership vote.

At the November board meeting the AKC Board, hearing no objection, agreed to distribute the revised AKC Guidelines for Writing Breed Standards. This was done AFTER the revised Dachshund standard was approved by the DCA membership.

One of the revisions:

VIII. Color ......In breeds where multiple colors or color combinations are acceptable, but not all colors are permitted, the complete list of all acceptable colors and color combinations must be included in the standard. In such cases, any color or color combination not mentioned are unacceptable, and judges are to pass judgment on this basis.


2007 In January, the AKC board approved the revised Dachshund standard

The approved standard was effective on March 1, 2007

In May a wire piebald Dachshund finished her Championship.


In June, four DCA board members wrote another letter (two pages) that was mailed to AKC judges. This letter instructed judges to EXCUSE piebald Dachshunds because the pattern is not listed in the standard and therefore deemed unacceptable-

In Spring 2012 of The Standard, a Judges' Newsletter, the DCA Judges' Ed. Committee again directed judges to excuse Dachshunds, this time with white that was on anywhere besides the chest. They also told judges about sudden appearences of black Dachshunds, and because of their suspicious origins, should not be awarded. Also mentioned was "muddy black and tans" being undesirable, when in fact the Standard states the prominence of tan is not desirable. Although under the seal of DCA, it was questionable whether this article was approved (or even read) by the DCA Board.

From 1995 to the present, 60 piebald Dachshunds have finished their Championships. So far, SIXTEEN of them after the revised breed standard became effective, including the first Longhair piebald Champion.
 

amparra

New Member
Thank you for your reply but everything I have read seems to indicate that mixing patterns (i.e. piebald and dapple) is HIGHLY discouraged in the U.S. at least. Furthermore, the AKC won't allow you to register two patterns.

Per the AKC standard guidelines

"In breeds where multiple colors or color combinations are acceptable, but not all colors are permitted, the complete list of all acceptable colors and color combinations must be included in the standard. In such cases, any color or color combination not mentioned are unacceptable, and judges are to pass judgment on this basis."

This seems to be confirmed by the very link you sent me with the codes for the colors and patterns. Brindle Piebald is acceptable. However, there is no Dapple Piebald and you would not be able to select two separate codes.

So your girl is either not registered with the AKC or you only registered one pattern?
 
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DeafDogs

Alberta Region Moderator
My boy Boo is registered with the Continental KC as a chocolate piebald... which is absolutely ridiculous as he is a black Double Dapple. Personally, I don't believe the ConKC is a reputable registry. Breeders who dont register colour properly are a major problem with Double Dapples. Boo's breeder also used him for stud... idiots
 

amparra

New Member
Apparently you can register double dapples with the AKC. There is a color code for it on the link that MJ Dachshunds provided.

Misrepresentation on registration papers really bothers me. Its a huge problem in Labradors. Disreputable and dishonest breeders registering "Silver labs" as Chocolate.

I agree with you that the Continental Kennel Club is absolutely bogus. Its primarily used by puppy mills and BYBs.
 

DeafDogs

Alberta Region Moderator
I do believe they have to register them as chocolate, as they cannot register them as silver.
 

dachshundlvr

New Member
To clarify...

What happens then if a dachshund does have silver on his ears? I just ran across this post here of what looks like a dappled dachshund. But is he double?
 

Penny

New Member
What happens then if a dachshund does have silver on his ears? I just ran across this post here of what looks like a dappled dachshund. But is he double?
No. He's a regular dapple.
Double dapples have big areas of white, plus the dappled parts, like the doxies in DeafDogs who posted above you.
 

DeafDogs

Alberta Region Moderator
I've been seeing alot of people selling single dapples as doubles. And doubles as triples? ??? If you don't know the colours, you shouldn't be breeding! I'm assuming the confusion is in the amount of colours on the dog (black, silver and white = ttiple) they have no clue that it's about genetics, not amount of colours.

Honestly, if you can't tell me everything I know and more about the breed, you should NOT be breeding! Lol
 

Nell

Member
OK to make it clear this post is purely because I want to learn not because I want to breed either of these chaps with my girl lol!

This advert has just been posted in the UK,

"Superb pedigree, KC Registered pups. Chubby, solid, content, well-boned, friendly, calm and quiet pair of velvet-coated boys in rare chocolate splashed with white and cream dapple. Mum is chocolate dapple and dad is chocolate and tan"

Two things, I thought they looked like piebalds but you can't register piebalds with the KC?

& how do you get the white from a dapple and chocolate and tan?
 

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Penny

New Member
Too bad the photos are so small and you don't see much of the puppy.
A piebald has minimum a white collar, white feet and tip of tail.
 
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